/buy votequeue

semolinapilchard
Member

Posts: 45

/buy votequeue Aug 29, 2020 17:34:05 GMT Som likes this

Post by semolinapilchard on Aug 29, 2020 17:34:05 GMT

What area of New Blood are you suggesting this for?

ZS

What is your suggestion and how will it work?

Add an item to shop called votequeue or something. If a player buys votequeue then a poll will be held for the next map.

For example /buy votequeue docks will prompt players to respond to a poll: should docks be queued as the next level? Players can then vote Y or N, if the vote succeeds, the map should automatically be queued.

What are the advantages of your suggestion?

/buy queuelevel is extremely pricey, and rightly so. /buy votequeue should be cheaper alternative to /buy queuelevel. I suggest votequeue should be priced at 50 bloodbags. Players will only buy this if they think the vote will pass, therefore it wont be spammed. If the price is more expensive, no one would risk buying it when they can buy queuelevel and have a guaranteed chance

It will increase community spirit: players will be able to help each other queue the maps they like the most without spending 150 bbs on a queue.

It is exciting, and will make players excited to try it

What are the disadvantages of your suggestion?

It may be too difficult to code? I'm not sure

Players may abuse it and spam it. I dont think this will be a problem because players can vote no in the poll. If you're still worried about people abusing it, it could be limited to two or three purchases a day.

Subelectronite Administrator Posts: 435	/buy votequeue Sept 1, 2020 21:19:58 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by Subelectronite on Sept 1, 2020 21:19:58 GMT An interesting mechanic, and could encourage players to use their bbs. The risk of not having the map pass is indeed compensated for by the lower price. One question I have is that should Supervisor+ continue to hold free votes?

semolinapilchard Member Posts: 45	/buy votequeue Sept 1, 2020 22:07:20 GMT via mobile Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by semolinapilchard on Sept 1, 2020 22:07:20 GMT I think they should keep it personally..? Though I'm up for hearing otherwise

2k10 Respected Posts: 145	/buy votequeue Sept 6, 2020 19:07:51 GMT yorkiebarz likes this Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by 2k10 on Sept 6, 2020 19:07:51 GMT I like this. Maybe its even better to remove queueLevel and have it replaced by this? Then it will always be queued by majority vote. Just like the normal end of round voting.

Fam0r
Revered Developer

Posts: 17

/buy votequeue Sept 7, 2020 8:15:46 GMT

Post by Fam0r on Sept 7, 2020 8:15:46 GMT

This could be easily used against the person who buys it. A group of people could troll by always voting No to waste someone's money. Maybe you should get 50% of the money back if the vote fails?

I also agree with 2k's idea. I don't think having both queuelevel and this in the store would be good, so maybe it's just better to remove queuelevel completely.

Discord: Fam0r#4200

Subelectronite
Administrator

Posts: 435

/buy votequeue Sept 7, 2020 11:25:27 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 7, 2020 11:25:27 GMT

Definitely think that queuelevel should NOT be removed. It's the only way that we can play a specific map that may be rarely voted for.

Don't really see a problem with people voting no, as the reason why votequeue is cheaper is because there's some risk that the vote may not pass. It also allows popular maps like nothing to be queued for a lower cost.

A disadvantage I see is that nothing-like maps will be spammed even more for eternity. Also players may bug Supervisor+ to come online and set up a vote rather than buy the item themselves.

2k10 Respected Posts: 145	/buy votequeue Sept 13, 2020 15:31:41 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by 2k10 on Sept 13, 2020 15:31:41 GMT I'm not sure having both the voteLevel and queueLevel is a good idea. If a map fails the vote, they could just queue it anyway

Subelectronite
Administrator

Posts: 435

/buy votequeue Sept 13, 2020 16:03:38 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 13, 2020 16:03:38 GMT

Sept 13, 2020 15:31:41 GMT 2k10 said:

I'm not sure having both the voteLevel and queueLevel is a good idea. If a map fails the vote, they could just queue it anyway

Is that not the sole reason why queueLevel exists? A player can queue their preferred map regardless of what others think. If one chooses to buy a voteLevel, they sacrifice certainty of queue for the lower cost. I see no issue with consequently buying a queueLevel if their gamble failed.

Removing queueLevel, however, would result in some minority favourites not seeing play, perhaps at all.

If either of these items are to be absent from the store, it should be voteLevel.

electronus1
Respected

Posts: 251

/buy votequeue Sept 13, 2020 17:16:41 GMT zingan likes this

Post by electronus1 on Sept 13, 2020 17:16:41 GMT

Sept 13, 2020 16:03:38 GMT Subelectronite said:

Sept 13, 2020 15:31:41 GMT 2k10 said:

I'm not sure having both the voteLevel and queueLevel is a good idea. If a map fails the vote, they could just queue it anyway

Is that not the sole reason why queueLevel exists? A player can queue their preferred map regardless of what others think. If one chooses to buy a voteLevel, they sacrifice certainty of queue for the lower cost. I see no issue with consequently buying a queueLevel if their gamble failed.

Removing queueLevel, however, would result in some minority favourites not seeing play, perhaps at all.

If either of these items are to be absent from the store, it should be voteLevel.

I'd argue there is a difference between someone buying a queue normally, and someone buying one after a failed vote. The main difference being that people actually had a say, and to then queue the map people have specifically said no to, is blatantly ignoring what the server majority voted for. I wouldn't say queuelevel's main intention is to purposefully ignore players opinions, instead it's intention is to allow a player to queue the map they want to play as there are 239 maps in the server pool, and only 3 in a vote. Therefore a map currently has a 1.37% chance of being in the next map vote (factoring in /ll). If you know you can only play for x time, and have a favourite map you want to play, you can queue it to make sure you play it. Coincidentally that means ignoring other player's opinions, and that's why you pay for it. As such supervisors can queue a map after a vote which player's vote for, but not straight up queue it on request, even if they're sure it'd pass a vote.

There is a difference between queuing a level before players have a chance to have a say, and queuing a level purposefully going against what the players have said. One is going, I want to play x map, but I don't know if you guys do, lets play. One is saying, I want to play x map and you have all stated you don't, tough luck. It's easier to put up with a map when the map is queued without having had a say, then having had a say, and then being completely ignored.

I would agree that /queuelevel is the one to keep.

arvid115 Administrator Posts: 247	/buy votequeue Sept 16, 2020 20:46:02 GMT Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by arvid115 on Sept 16, 2020 20:46:02 GMT I would personally just say, change /queue to being cheaper, and your queued map is guaranteed a spot in the map vote by the end of the round.

Subelectronite
Administrator

Posts: 435

/buy votequeue Sept 17, 2020 15:35:24 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 17, 2020 15:35:24 GMT

Sept 16, 2020 20:46:02 GMT arvid115 said:

I would personally just say, change /queue to being cheaper, and your queued map is guaranteed a spot in the map vote by the end of the round.

Sounds like a good additional item to the shop (it'll probably work similarly to nominations in CTF) but I still think we should keep the original queuelevel since it's the only way to guarantee a round with a map of your choosing.

arvid115
Administrator

Posts: 247

/buy votequeue Sept 17, 2020 18:40:34 GMT

Post by arvid115 on Sept 17, 2020 18:40:34 GMT

Sept 17, 2020 15:35:24 GMT Subelectronite said:

Sept 16, 2020 20:46:02 GMT arvid115 said:

I would personally just say, change /queue to being cheaper, and your queued map is guaranteed a spot in the map vote by the end of the round.

Sounds like a good additional item to the shop (it'll probably work similarly to nominations in CTF) but I still think we should keep the original queuelevel since it's the only way to guarantee a round with a map of your choosing.

And that's exactly the problem, having a queuelevel that guarantees a map, while good in some senses, can be absolutely horrible in other ones. If you use a cheaper queue for a map that most people like, then you'll likely guaranteed get your map played, cheaper than before. If your map wouldn't get picked in the map vote post-round which makes it necessary for you to have a guaranteed queue, then it likely shouldn't be queued, since the players don't want it played.

Subelectronite
Administrator

Posts: 435

/buy votequeue Sept 17, 2020 20:45:09 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 17, 2020 20:45:09 GMT

Sept 17, 2020 18:40:34 GMT arvid115 said:

Sept 17, 2020 15:35:24 GMT Subelectronite said:

Sounds like a good additional item to the shop (it'll probably work similarly to nominations in CTF) but I still think we should keep the original queuelevel since it's the only way to guarantee a round with a map of your choosing.

And that's exactly the problem, having a queuelevel that guarantees a map, while good in some senses, can be absolutely horrible in other ones. If you use a cheaper queue for a map that most people like, then you'll likely guaranteed get your map played, cheaper than before. If your map wouldn't get picked in the map vote post-round which makes it necessary for you to have a guaranteed queue, then it likely shouldn't be queued, since the players don't want it played.

Whilst I concede that there are downsides to being able to guarantee any map, it should be noted that if your preferred map is in the bottom proportion popularity-wise of the 240 or so maps in the current list, one particular individual will rarely see it played via map votes alone. Suppose your map of choice is one the bottom 20% of maps in terms of popularity, then it has to be up against two less popular maps in the map vote in order to be played. The chances of all three maps being in the bottom 20% is 1 in 125 multiplied by the probability of that map appearing (1.37% as Ethan stated earlier) giving 1 in 9000, and even then there's a chance that the players online will prefer the alternatives if they're similar in popularity. Now, this isn't to say that the map is inherently bad and that it shouldn't be in the map list, but more that this situation arises because better maps exist. Even if we removed the bottom 20% of maps from the map list, you would end up with a new bottom 20% and such a situation will continue to emerge.

The point is that in a map voting system where maps have to compete against one another to be played, there will always be a proportion of maps that will rarely see play.

Unless, however, we offer the opportunity to queue them, in which case queuelevel comes in.

Of course, this notion of 'popularity' is not fixed and what might be considered to be popular one day may not the next day. It might also be said that the players online will vary and perhaps there will be a time when they may prefer this less popular map over the more popular maps. But in general, the current set of active players have a similar taste as to which maps are more enjoyable than others, and even those who are on for a long session are willing to play the same popular map again two hours later.

So, we can either offer queuelevel as an item, or we can sit knowing that some of the maps in the map list exist simply as a buffer for the more popular maps to be voted against.

In any case, setting up a Y/N vote would be better since the map does not have to be voted against any other maps in order to played, but rather only has to have the agreement of at least half the players online. Although there hasn't been a problem with queuelevel so far, so I'm not sure why it needs to be replaced.

In response to what Ethan has said: whilst queuing after the server has voted no could be considered an 'in your face' move, I wouldn't say it's as bad as you make it out to be. You could easily interpret queuelevel as saying 'I won't let you have a say, I want to play this map', and votelevel + queuelevel as 'I see that some of you who voted N don't want to play this map but there are also some of us who voted Y who really want to.'

arvid115
Administrator

Posts: 247

/buy votequeue Sept 19, 2020 0:05:39 GMT

Post by arvid115 on Sept 19, 2020 0:05:39 GMT

There will always be more popular maps than others. It's impossible to avoid, if all maps are masterpieces, then no maps will be good. The good maps are good largely because they're better than the bad maps. If you want your map played, then make it better. There's no other solution, people shouldn't have to waste their time on a round that they don't want to play. Also, a Y/N vote wouldn't work very well, since people would have to vote mid-round, where a lot of people are busy chasing/being chased and can't vote, thus not making the vote very fair all the time. Keeping it at the end of the round is better.

markcxjo
Member

Posts: 38

/buy votequeue Oct 26, 2020 11:06:05 GMT

Post by markcxjo on Oct 26, 2020 11:06:05 GMT

I'd like to weigh in a little:

arvid115 said "Keeping it at the end of the round is better." - it is both equally better and worse, the downside being the time wasted. If a votequeued map loses, then there would be 20 more seconds of waiting for people to vote on other 3 server-suggested maps, which is time wasting.
"The good maps are good largely because they're better than the bad maps." - much of a muchness/buttery butter, since, well, you already said why good maps are better than bad maps in the first place; bad maps are either seen individually as bad maps or as the majority of the server by voting and periodical mass map removal polls. Sure, if you have any suggestions to the map creator (if they're active that is) on how the map would benefit by getting it improved, you can tell them, but if you're disliking it just because someone built it or because that map has a disadvantage specifically towards you, then it's another discussion.

2k10 wrote: "Maybe its even better to remove queueLevel and have it replaced by this? Then it will always be queued by majority vote." - no and yes. If you want queuelevel or votequeue to be used less or more often, price it up, then people will see it as higher/lower value and be more inclined to use another option.

Post by semolinapilchard on Aug 29, 2020 17:34:05 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 1, 2020 21:19:58 GMT

Post by semolinapilchard on Sept 1, 2020 22:07:20 GMT

Post by 2k10 on Sept 6, 2020 19:07:51 GMT

Post by Fam0r on Sept 7, 2020 8:15:46 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 7, 2020 11:25:27 GMT

Post by 2k10 on Sept 13, 2020 15:31:41 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 13, 2020 16:03:38 GMT

Post by electronus1 on Sept 13, 2020 17:16:41 GMT

Post by arvid115 on Sept 16, 2020 20:46:02 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 17, 2020 15:35:24 GMT

Post by arvid115 on Sept 17, 2020 18:40:34 GMT

Post by Subelectronite on Sept 17, 2020 20:45:09 GMT

Post by arvid115 on Sept 19, 2020 0:05:39 GMT

Post by markcxjo on Oct 26, 2020 11:06:05 GMT